This week I’m joined by kidlit author Maggie Tokuda-Hall. Maggie shares how illustrators amplified the messages in her picture books, why she worked with women editors for her feminist graphic novel, and what she did with her overedited, totally trunked manuscript. Plus we dive into our objectively perfect #StetPet personalities.
Music: Harlequin by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3858-harlequin
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Show Notes:
@emteehall on twitter
@maggietokudahall on ig and tiktok
The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea
Squad
Love in the Library: https://www.mrsdalloways.com/book/9781536204308
prettyokmaggie.com
Martha Mahalick, editor at Harper Collins: https://twitter.com/marthamihalick
Interview with We Need Diverse Books: https://diversebooks.org/qa-with-maggie-tokuda-hall-the-mermaid-the-witch-and-the-sea/
Jon Klassen, I Want My Hat Back: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11233988-i-want-my-hat-back
Yas Imamura: https://yasimamura.tumblr.com/
Kate DiCamillo: https://www.katedicamillostoriesconnectus.com/
Sarah Gailey, Just Like Home: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/57693472
Robyn Schneider, The Other Merlin: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56631877-the-other-merlin
Ryka Aoki, Light from Uncommon Stars: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/56179360
Stephen Graham Jones, My Heart Is a Chainsaw: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/55711617
T. Kingfisher: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/7367300.T_Kingfisher
Tananarive Due: https://www.tananarivedue.com/
Transcript:
Ariel: Hi there and welcome to Edit Your Darlings, a podcast that tries to take the sting out of editing by talking with darling authors about their experiences.
I'm Ariel Anderson and today I'm joined by Maggie Tokuda-Hall. Maggie has an MFA in creative writing from the University of San Francisco and is the author of the 2017 Parents Choice Gold Medal-winning picture book, Also an Octopus, which was illustrated by Benji Davies. The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea is her debut young adult novel, which was an NPR, Kirkus, School Library Journal, and Book Page Best Book of 2020. Her graphic novel Squad has already been optioned by Picture Start and Lionsgate for television. My goodness! And she lives in Oakland, with her husband, her son, and her objectively perfect dog.
Thank you so much for making time to talk with me, Maggie.
Maggie: Thank you for having me!
Ariel: Okay, so one of your recent tweets asked if people want to give the gift of angry feminism by buying your graphic novel Squad, and I'm totally sold. So this book was in collaboration with the illustrator Lisa Sterle. How did you two work together to decide on the final product? Like, were you really collaborators, or was it more like you do the work and then just pass it off to her and trust her vision?
Maggie: Yeah, it's the latter. So I wrote the script for it, god, in 2018, I think, and it sold to Martha Mahalick at Harper Collins, and we edited it together and then Martha found some options for illustrators.
You know, I wasn't really given like free rein be like, “I want this person to illustrate the book,” but I was given sort of like veto power. But Lisa was both of our absolute first choice. And I was so excited when she said yes. When Lisa read the script, she had a couple notes and so we made a couple changes for things that she'd noticed. I loved the notes that she gave, and it went off from there.
And so then Lisa sent back sketches. I had the opportunity to say like, “oh, you know, like I think their house would be tackier than this,” or whatever it was, but for the most part, Lisa’s vision of the book was so exactly what I had hoped for and better that it didn't actually take a lot of going back and forth between the two of us. So it was a real pleasure.
Ariel: Do you remember what have you those notes were?
Maggie: Oh gosh, from Lisa or from me?
Ariel: Either.
Maggie: From Lisa... the note that I remember that she gave that I loved the most was, “Can Becca hace a little bit more time to just like enjoy being a werewolf?
Ariel: [gasp!]
Maggie: Yes, she sure can. That was one I was really excited to write. So that was one that she gave to me, and then ones I gave back to her would be like, “oh, this character just looks a little too mature. Like she looks like a grown woman while the rest of them look like teenagers. What can we do to make her look like a teen?” Or you know, “It can be difficult to distinguish them in this particular scene because their hair colors are so close. Can we change this girl's hair so that, you know, when they're fighting, they don't blend into one sort of like brunette blob?”
But you know they're very minor. We didn't have any sort of like major schisms in the way that we saw the book coming out.
Ariel: Yeah, it was kind of those questions of casting and makeup.
Maggie: Yes. Yeah, exactly. It was very easy.
Ariel: And then since this is a feminist work, were all of your editors women or nonbinary, or do you think it would have made a difference?
Maggie: They were absolutely all women or nonbinary? I wasn't particularly interested in selling it to a male editor, nor was my agent. I remember there was, when we were sending it out on submission, there was one editor someone had given me a heads up on. My agent was like, “Do you want to send this to man?” We were both like, “No.” So it didn't go to that particular house for that reason. But I am so pleased with the way that it came out, and I think Martha Mahalick at Greenwillow was the absolute perfect editor and be at the helm of this.
Ariel: And then, okay, I read your 2020 interview with We Need Diverse Books—fabulous organization, they are—and they mentioned that a big theme of your YA debut, The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea, is taking your fate into your own hands. So how do you own the editing process for your work?
Maggie: Yeah, that's such an interesting question. I think a lot of writers might feel the same way I have in the past, which is like if you're a people pleaser, it's really hard not to take an edit or not to just do exactly what an editor tells you to do, because you're like, “Okay, well, if that's what you think, and that's what we'll do.” And the more I've written professionally, the more I realized how much power you have to push back on edits you don't agree with and be like, “well, you know, I see your criticism,” you have to still take in the criticisms and answer them in some way. But there are some things, like especially prescriptive edits, where they're like, “why don't you try this or that?” that you can be like “I don't want to and here's why.”
And I think as long as you think out why you're not doing that, and you have some sort of response for addressing valid criticisms, like “this beginning is slow,” then you have a lot of power. And it took me a really long time to realize that you know, editor's aren't just giving you a laundry list of to-dos. They're giving you suggestions with the idea that you will take some of it and not all of it. You know, you're working together to make it a better project. It's not just like they're the fact person, you know, they're the boss and then you do what they say or you're fired.
Ariel: Yeah, yeah. I try to make it really, really clear on all of my edit letters that hey, every mark that I've made on this page is a suggestion. It's based on my expertise and my experience, but ultimately, like, the words are the author’s, they belong to you and so you have to own them. And you know, it's hard to look at someone who is an expert and be like, “nng, I don't think you're right.”
Maggie: Yeah, I think you should be kind of nervous at the very beginning of your career about doing that, frankly, because you're not an expert yet. And so having an expert there to guide you, you probably should be a little bit more deferential. But I will say that the longer I've been doing this the more comfortable I've started feeling. I think, “well, here are the things I absolutely agree with.” And usually it's that I absolutely agree with the criticism. I just don't agree with the way of getting there. And I think that's the harder thing for a lot of people to distinguish.
Ariel: Yeah. And then what sort of wording do you use when you pass it back and you're like, “I'm absolutely not doing that. Thank you, ma'am”?
Maggie: I think I do it a lot like an edit letter sent to me in the first place, where it's like, “I love this note that you gave me about this, and here are the changes I made here. I wonder if, like, I didn't find this particular route to solving the issue of speeding up the beginning particularly helpful, but I hope with these changes that I've made that the problem will be mollified.
Ariel: Yes!
Maggie: Dadadadadada.
Ariel: Perfect.
Maggie: Same kind of thing, praise sandwich of like, “I see what you did, and I like most of it. Here's the one thing that I took a couple little things that I didn't do quite like you said, but here are the things I tried to do to address it in my own way.” So it's always respectful, just the way that they sent you respectful letter in the first place, hopefully.
Ariel: Yeah, and by doing that, you’re kind of turning it again into a conversation instead of a one-way street.
Maggie: Yes. Which I think is the way it's supposed to be.
Ariel: Yeah!
Maggie: Is my understanding, unless every editor is just like putting down my little emails back to them and be like, “this bitch.” Excuse me! Am I allowed to swear here?
Ariel: Yes you are, ma’am.
Maggie: I should have asked that before we started recording. I mean, so far, I haven't gotten the sense that I pushed back in a way that made anyone angry. And it's because I am genuinely excited to receive edits. Like I want to put out the best book possible. And I know that the editor is emotionally invested in that as well. And so for the most part, I want to listen, so really it's harder for me to not follow an editor's direction than to follow it 99% of the time. Like I'll really try, and I really only don't if I can't, I just can't make it work.
Ariel: Genuinely excited to receive edits. That is such a better mindset to bring to it than genuinely terrified.
Maggie: I mean, okay, let's be honest, that there’s is the emotional process of like, I'm excited to receive these edits, and then you receive them you're like, I am no longer excited. But while I'm waiting for them is, like, an exciting moment, like I know that editors aren't mean and they wouldn't have, you know, bought the rights to the book if they weren't interested in making it into something good.
Ariel: Yeah. So let's talk about your new picture book. You have Love in the Library coming out in January 2022. So by the time this launches, that will be like any day now.
Maggie: Yes.
Ariel: So, I'm assuming it's completely buttoned up as far as the editing goes and it's just waiting for someone out there to hit the launch button.
Maggie: Yes, that's correct.
Ariel: Okay, so just looking at the little previews that are available on the Penguin Random House website, it's really striking to me, because it looks like it breaks some conventions that I hold dear in my heart about picture books, which is that picture books are about children.
Maggie: Mmhmm.
Ariel: And they are bright and colorful and most of them are in rhyme. And this one—
Maggie: Wow. We can talk about the rhyming thing later. But yeah.
Ariel: This one breaks conventions because it's dealing with a harder subject matter, right? It talks about Japanese internment camps. And then the main characters are adults. So did you get any feedback or pushback about that? Or was it just universally loved?
Maggie: I absolutely got pushback on it. It got rejected from a couple places who were like, “Can you change the story to be about kids?” and I was like, “No, this is a true story.” That children I think, should be privy to have an opportunity to hear. I don't know. It felt very gross to take my grandparents’ true story and be like, they’re kids now.
Ariel: I didn't know it was about your grandparents.
Maggie: Yeah, it's the true story of how my grandparents met in a Japanese internment camp.
Ariel: Oh my gosh!
Maggie: And so that's why I stuck really hard to it. I was like, it felt very disrespectful to take their story and to make it more marketable, if that makes sense.
Ariel: Yeah!
Maggie: And so yeah, it does break that convention. And I understand why that convention exists, and I think that it should for most of the picture book industry, but I also think that if you want kids to be aware of the real world and to have empathy for adults, as well as other children, you have to have some stories about grownups and there are some really beautiful children's books about grownups out there.
You know, that's one thing, and the, the idea that, you know, all picture books have to be brightly colored and rhyming, I totally understand. As like a former bookseller, that’s the bread and butter of the picture book industry is like you want stuff that Gammy is going to feel good buying for the kids and like, you know. But I do think that the diversity of children's books is important in every possible way, first and foremost within the creators, but also within the emotional experiences depicted within them.
And now that I’m saying this out loud, when I think about it, many of my favorite picture book colors have that kind of muted palette. Like, I think of Jon Klassen’s work particularly always has like a strong sort of like beigy undertone to everything he does. The red hat in I Want My Hat Back is probably the brightest color he's ever used. And I love his work, and I think kids do too, and I think anytime you think that there is a rule for how a story needs to be told for a certain age group, I think you're just begging people to not listen to it. And so…
Ariel: You little rebel!
Maggie: Well, it’s like, ‘cause as soon as you start thinking about that rule, you’re like well, is that really true? And of course it's not because most rules are, you know, BS. I understand why the rules exist and why most people should follow them most of the time, but if you're going to break them, you should be purposeful about it. Right?
And so I do think a true story about adults functioning in a world that these children live in, you know, it shouldn't be punched up to be brighter or rhyming or cutesy or happier. What happened to my grandparents was monstrous. It was a horrible thing. And it's an introduction to thinking about racism and the way that it's defined America.
It's illustrated by Yas Imamura, who's incredible. I'm biased, but I do think that this is some of her finest work in a career just like chock full of beautiful work. And, and she did such a beautiful job, depicting the ugliness of the circumstances, while highlighting the beauty of their connection in a way that is so articulate and goes so much beyond simply what I had written.
And one of the edits we did actually on this book was there's a page—and it's my favorite page spread in the book now—where Tama is sitting on the ground and she's reading these books, imagining all these things that her wrongful imprisonment have sort of precluded from her. And it used to have a description, just like, “she read about this and that and the other thing,” and then when Yas turned in her illustrations, both Karen Lots, who’s the editor of this book, and I were like, “So we can just cut all those words, right? These illustrations do all the work,” and we're like agree, easy cut, easy cut to make here, to make more room for the illustration. And so that was like a wonderful moment in editing and such a humbling reminder as a writer that you're… what you're doing is a collaboration and, in some ways, just making room for an illustrator.
And I think that she handled it with such sensitivity that I hope that kids will respond, like understanding that the circumstances are terrible, but the strength of human spirit is greater. And I think that that's something that's done particularly in the way that she broke convention with a color palette.
Ariel: That's beautiful. I'm, like, tearing up in my closet. I love hearing about these really serendipitous collaborations, finding a perfect fit and amplifying these messages that are so important.
Maggie: She is another person who was absolute top choice for illustrator that I'm so lucky that she said yes.
Ariel: Whew. It's hard to move on from that topic. Okay, maybe a little lighter question. So you are kidlit triple force, right, with picture books, and YA, and a graphic novel. What challenges did you encounter in editing each medium, and which process felt best for you?
Maggie: I appreciate being called a triple force, gonna put it on my grave. I would say picture books are the hardest for me to write. YA novels are the hardest for me to edit. And graphic novels are the most fun to draft and edit. Graphic novels are the most fun.
Ariel: Why are picture books the hardest to write?
Maggie: Picture books are so flippin hard. I would say like, I have never written a full graphic novel script and had it go nowhere. Like if I finish it, I'm going to sell it, like, that's the deal.
Ariel: That’s a flex!
Maggie: It is! It's the medium that comes most naturally to me. And so you know whether or not I have a story that I can actually finish a whole manuscript with is a whole other question. I start a lot and don’t finish them. But when I finish them, I feel sure of them.
That's kind of the same for prose novels. Although I never sold my prose novel I wrote as my like, grad school thesis, but it was also a hunk of trash that workshops to death in a group of people who never read a YA novel in their life. So I kind of am going like, “Is it my fault?” That one was like, a strange circumstance.
But picture books. I write like a million of, and my agent just looks at them and she's like, “well, why don't you try again?” It's the hardest, and I think they’re the hardest because picture books are kind of like poems, like they have to be so slight, and every word has to be perfect. And the concept has to be so clean. And the idea of holding a child’s attention in that age group is so difficult. And I don't illustrate and so just writing the scripts for these like it can be… it's the hardest one for me, like I…
Yeah, I have two picture books now and one more coming eventually. But like, I have no idea when I'll have another one after that. Like that's my confidence level with picture books, is like every single one could be the last one.
Whereas when I've YA, just in general, I feel like a lot more confident. I think it's, that's the age group that I'm the most fluent in. I have this theory that adults are stuck emotionally at some point in their childhood, like there's some age group in their childhood that they still feel an unusual kinship with because something happened at that age, like, could be something traumatic, it could be something wonderful. But for whatever reason, like that was the happiest you were in your life. That was the moment you came of age in a particularly interesting way that you've just never been able to walk away from. Whatever it is.
Ariel: I feel like I'm probably stuck at a very sassy, know-it-all 13 or 14.
Maggie: Mmhmm, love that for you.
Ariel: I'm glad that I've grown a lot of empathy since then.
Maggie: Oh my god. Can you imagine? What I mean, though, like there's something about that age where you see kids that age and you’re like, “I get it.” And it makes writing for them, and I imagine editing for those age groups, more intuitive as well. Because you remember what it felt like to be that age. There's something about that age that still feels immediate to you.
Ariel: Yeah.
Maggie: Mine is like 16 years old, like that's the age that is just really stuck with me.
And so when I write for those age groups, I write with just a ton more confidence. That's been the most fun.
Whereas if you asked me what was it like to be seven? I'd be like, oh gosh, I have no idea. Like that's so distant to me now. I would feel the same way if you asked me what was it like to be 22? I have no idea. So distant!
Ariel: Yeah, it's easier to ask things like, What sort of games did you play on the playground? Right, those really concrete, because the years kind of blend together. Like I was in elementary school for a number of years and all of those years kind of mushed together. Right?
Maggie: Right. And so figuring out the articulation of your emotional experiences in those years can be hard. Right? Or it's like it's a more empathetic exercise than that age that you just feel that sort of like, oh, yeah, I still feel that way sometimes.
Ariel: And that's why there's can be so much subjectivity when you get those comments that are like, “I don't know if a teenager would say that.”
Maggie: I get that all the time. But yeah. Right now I'm editing the sequel to The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea, and it's basically like throwing my body against a brick wall daily.
Ariel: Oh no!
Maggie: I had such a good time writing it, like the draft of it just came out like no problem. I was so proud of myself. And the edits came back, and they're very slight, like they're not like a Herculean amount of edits that need to be done. But the ones that need to be done are so precise. And I'm struggling with them so much that I should maybe take back my confidence and YA thing a little bit or couch it anyway with that I'm in the midst of just nightmare edits right now.
Ariel: Well, and I would also imagine that editing YA would be harder than editing picture books because there's so many more words to remember.
Maggie: You know, I find the opposite to be true.
Ariel: Ack!
Maggie: So, YA, when you do those edits, the reason these ones are harder is because it's more like a picture book, like the edits are slight. So you're making minute changes with big differences. And those are always harder to do than like, hey, just cut this chapter and rewrite it. You're like, okay, like bummer, but also that's like very clear. Whereas like when you edit a picture book, it's like, well, if you say “very” here, are you overselling it? And like, da da da, you know, it's like, every word has so much weight. And so anytime you change a thing in a picture book, the whole thing becomes unbalanced, and you have to write it again. And that's so hard.
Ariel: So let's move on to the questions that I ask every author I talk to. What do you hate about the editing process?
Maggie: Minute edits. Tense changes.
Ariel: But tense changes are not minute. That cascades!
Maggie: Right, it's not minute in workload, but it's minute in intellectual effort, right? Like it's busy work. That's like the worst kind of edit because it's not doing any of the exciting creative work that editing can be. Sometimes you get an edit where you're like, oh, it like, lights you on fire, and they're like, oh, this character isn’t clear, and you’re like, I know why they aren't clear, because I haven't told you this about them and if I do this, that, and the other thing with them, then you’ll know, and Oh my God, like, I'm ready. Let's do this. And like you're just raring to go to do that edit, to like to meet it because you're ready for it.
And then there are ones where it's, like, not an intellectual exercise. It's just busywork like tense changes where you're like, I would rather throw myself off the Golden Gate Bridge yet here I am. And those are, like, up there for my least favorites.
But the hardest ones, the most satisfying ones to fix but the hardest ones to approach or minute edits that make a big difference. And that's like that picture book editing, those minute character differences where they need to hit just like a very slightly different tone of voice throughout one part of a book or something, where you're like, oh, geez. Like it's really articulate work you have to get into I like being confronted with those edits, but I hate having to do them.
Ariel: If only all the edits were easy…
Maggie: That would be great. And if you guys could just do that. I would appreciate it. But I love the edits that are like, “you're so close here. I can feel you getting to this, but you're not quite there yet. Like, here are the things I feel like you're missing,” and you're like, yes. Let's get to it. Anything that makes it more complicated I'm into.
Ariel: I feel bad when I have to be like, “I think I understand what you're saying here, but it could be misread. How about these five other ways of wording it.”
Maggie: I love those kinds of edits because at least it’s an intellectual exercise. You’re like, well, what are the different ways this could be read? And you get to think about it as the author, and like, that's the fun of writing, is that kind of craftm not like “are you in past present or what's going on here?”
I have to change an entire character's point of view chapters to… from present to past tense.
Ariel: Ew.
Maggie: These edits I'm doing right now. Yeah, nightmare. Just a nightmare because it's not… it's not interesting. But it also can't be done by like a copy editors and because there's so many choices you have to make. They're just all boring choices.
Ariel: Yeah, I have done… I'm a copy editor, just a lowly, lowly copy editor, and I have done some sort of enforcing where the author was like, “I tried to put all of this character's point of view chapters in third person, past tense and all of this character's point of view chapters in first person present tense.”
Maggie: Yeah.
Ariel: And so I would help enforce that rule. But I'm not going to make rules like that.
Maggie: It's brutal.
Ariel: It’s a choice!
Maggie: Like, point taken. And I'm happy to do it.
I saw the point that Karen was making and she was correct. That's why I'm willing to do it, but also it’s a nightmare.
Ariel: So what’s the most common bit of feedback you receive on your writing?
Maggie: That word is too big.
Ariel: Ooh! No way! Children know all sorts of words.
Maggie: I get read to filth on my vocabulary choices at every age level all the time. That is like the number one piece of feedback I receive. It's like that word is too much.
Ariel: What are some words that have been struck down recently?
Maggie: Capacious.
Ariel: Oh, okay, yeah.
Maggie: Which I've learned from a Kate DiCamillo. But I learned it from Kate DiCamillo!
Ariel: I don’t even know what that word mean!
Maggie: Like having great capacity.
Ariel: Yeah!
Maggie: So like you refer to somebody’s capacious heart or your capacious imagination. It’s… once you know that word, it's a beautiful word that works in so many circumstances. That's the one that sticks out the most to me because I still love the word. I think every other time. It's been pointed out to me I've like kind of back down and been like, okay, yeah, I see your point, and capacious is one that I did have to back down, but I still feel kind of like, but it’s a good word. Ariel: I'm on a project right now that's really challenging my vocabulary, which is amazing. But I had to look up… right, so they face sat down on a bedspread, and it debossed with their butt imprint. And I was like, “wait a second.” Oh, it's the opposite of embossing.
Maggie: Embossed, yeah.
Ariel: Oh no!
Maggie: Is that for a children's book?
Ariel: No.
Maggie: Okay, I was gonna say, I wanted to know who was getting away with that when I wasn’t allowed to get away with capacious.
Ariel: But I mean, the connotation of boss to me, it has nothing to do with… Oh, just so interesting. Any last words of advice?
I guess just remember, I know for a lot of writers, edits can feel like an attack.
Ariel: Mmm, ouch.
Maggie: I know. I don't feel this way because I'm such a perfectionist that like I want your harshest edits possible. But some people do not feel that way and my advice to people who do not feel that way is that—and this is only true of editors who have signed your book or an agent. This is not true of workshop situations, ‘cause workshops are different. I don't actually recommend them for everyone.
But if you are a professional writer, working with a professional editor is going to be part of your job. And the thing that I would encourage you to remember is that they would not have acquired your book if they did not believe in it, and that they want the best book possible. Like the closest thing to your vision as possible.
And so you don't have to do everything that they say, but remind yourself when you receive that edit letter and it says something that you wish it didn't say, that they are doing this out of their professional interest too, because their name is on that book, and they want it to be the best it can be.
Ariel: Yeah, it's so deeply ingrained that the editor is an adversary.
Maggie: Mmhmm, which is so untrue. It's just not been true in my experience. It's just not been true. It's just not true.
Ariel: If that's the relationship that it feels like to you, darling listener, find a different editor.
Maggie: I would say I think that there's a thing that happens in like competitive workshops, where people can be kind of jerks about getting feedback, and that's one of the reasons I don't love workshops for everyone. I know that workshops kind of kicked the crap out of me for years. And it took me a really long time to get my own voice back as a writer because of them. Because if you're a people pleaser, you're like, well, I’ll do what you say, but you can't write by committee. And so you end up with this kind of mush of a manuscript that doesn't reflect you anymore and doesn't even reflect them. It just reflects the comments they need offhandedly, you know, on a manuscript they read 10 minutes before class started or whatever.
Ariel: Mm, ouch!
Maggie: Well, you know…
Ariel: Yeah, it's true, it's true.
Maggie: It’s a thing that happens, and so you know, finding a writers group can be really important, the people who you really feel like understand your work and have your best interests in mind and are your friends is a good place to start. Or just finding a couple people and just trusting them.
That's how I do it now, is like, I have like one or two beta readers max and my agent before it goes to an editor, and then I work with an editor, and then I don't show anyone else anymore.
Ariel: That's a flex too, I think.
Maggie: I don’t know that it is. I think it just means that I'm so much of a people pleaser that I emotionally cannot take too much feedback from too many different people because I don't know how to compromise at all. Like I'm not like strong enough to just be like, “Well, I see what you're saying and I disagree” to like somebody I do workshop with.
Ariel: Do you think you'll ever go back to that trunked manuscript and try to rewrite it?
Maggie: Which one, the grad school one? No, I think we ended up addressing most of the themes I was most interested in it with The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea.
Ariel: Oh, okay, good.
Maggie: So yeah, it was it was trunked for a good reason, it shall never see the light of day. The one thing that I missed from it was that there were spotted hyenas in it, and I was able to put spotted hyenas into the sequel to The Mermaid, the Witch, and the Sea, and I'm very excited about that. And so truly everything that that manuscript had to offer has been covered elsewhere now.
Ariel: You’re just so full of win.
Maggie: I wouldn't go that far, but I did manage to sneak hyenas in and I felt very good about that.
Ariel: I love it. Okay, so the last portion of our program is a Hot and Wholesome Gossip Corner. Are there any other writers or creators doing something you're excited about? Any shoutouts you want to give or people you want to lift up?
Maggie: Hell yeah there are.
Ariel: Yeah there are!
Maggie: Okay, so first of all, Sarah Gailey has their first horror novel coming out next year. It's called Just Like Home, and it is so good, and also if you're not reading their comic book series, Eat the Rich, whew! If you can handle a little gore, Eat the Rich is a delight. It is wackadoo and I love it. It just like keeps going up a notch.
One of my favorite YA novels I read this year was The Other Merlin by Robyn Schneider, which if you want like a gender-bent queer King Arthur retelling, highly recommend, it was so much fun.
Ariel: I think we all want that.
Maggie: We all want it. Like, I love it for that feeling of like even the characters who get introduced you're like, Oh, I hate them, you end up liking. It’s one of those and it's very funny and they're are also dirtbags, which I enjoy.
Let’s see. Light from Uncommon Stars by Ryka Aoki is like a fantasy scifi mashup that is half about aliens who have sort of been refugeed in the United States and are running a donut shop, which is actually like a cool allegory to the way that Cambodian refugees settled in California, which is like a side thing. Um, and also a fantasy novel about a violin teacher who trades her students’ souls to the devil. Yeah anyway, and also a romance and also comedy. Anyway, it's so good.
My Heart Is a Chainsaw by Stephen Graham Jones was incredible horror novel—I’ve been on a big horror kick this year, including like T Kingfisher, and Tananarive Due have been amazing.
And then there is a children's book called Animals Brag about Their Bottoms. And I forget the author/illustrator of it, and it didn't come out this year. It came out like two years ago. It's translated from Japanese. It's a perfect book and I gave it to every kid in my life for Christmas this year, and I highly recommend it.
Ariel: Okay, which animal has the best bottom?
Maggie: Well, that's the thing. They're not comparing. They're all just honoring the thing that makes their bottoms special. It's extremely cute. It's like a weirdly body positive, adorable little story, and I read it to a class of first graders over Zoom and now I'm the most popular girl at the Mission Academy.
Ariel: And now I have to ask because that reminds me… I'm thinking about bottoms. Animals with amazing bottoms. So Corgi butts. And then you say that you have an objectively perfect dog.
Maggie: Mmhmm. He's a doodle. He has a very bony bottom. He’s perfect.
Ariel: Yeah. My dog’s best friend is a doodle.
Maggie: Aw!
Ariel: I’m a big fan of doodles.
Maggie: Is your dog not a doodle?
Ariel: No, I have a big black lab.
Maggie: Oh, cute. I always joke. First of all that he's objectively perfect. I mean, he's perfect in my eyes, but that doodles are racist because they like see each other from across the street and they get super excited. Like, god, you’re such a racist. So that’s why I was like, “Oh, your dog’s not a doodle and his best friend’s a doodle?” I know that they are capable of friendship with other dogs, but I just also know that they are racist, universally.
Ariel: No, when his best friend sees him coming down the street, she actually lays down and refuses to go anywhere until she gets to greet him.
Maggie: I love that for them. They’re adorable and perfect.
Ariel: Well, if you want to check out Maggie’s work, you can find her as @emteehall (that’s E-M-T-E-E Hall) on Twitter and @maggietokudahall on Instagram and Tiktok—ooh, I’m a big fan of booktok. I’m not on TikTok, but I see a whole lot of it transfer over to Twitter, and I love it! Or you can head to her website, the humbly named prettyokmaggie.com. Be sure to grab her latest books, Squad and Love in the Library, from your favorite indie shop!
And thank you again for talking with me, Maggie!
Maggie: Aw, thank you so much for having me!
Ariel: If you loved this episode of Edit Your Darlings, why not share it with a friend? Remember to rate and review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast fix. For show notes go to edityourdarlings. com, follow us on Twitter and Instagram @editpodcast, or I'm @arielcopyedits. Until next week, cheers!